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Tech letters for May 28, 2003 - Answers #1

Edited by John Stevenson

Confounded by carbon fiber? Need to sound off about superlight stuff? Tech letters is the forum for your gear-related questions and opinions.

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Questions   Answers #2

2004 Dura Ace
'Burping' tubular tires
Carbon upgrades
Computer mount
Dura-Ace hoods
Flight Deck problems

These subjects were originally raised or dicussed in our last edition's questions and answers.

2004 Dura Ace #1

Change is almost always met with some amount of skepticism and resistance, as is the case with the 2004 Dura Ace system. The decisions a company like Shimano make are a mixture of marketing, competition with rivals, and performance improvement. You can be assured that Shimano, with their vast quantity of resources, will not produce a product solely because of one-upmanship against Campagnolo, but because it will offer tremendous performance improvements.

In this regard I feel that the new 2004 system is intelligent, brave and progressive. I had a chance to see Armstrong's 2004 Dura Ace bike at Amstel and I can assure you that this new technology is going to set a precedent for companies like Campagnolo who will eventually be forced to move away from their reputation of "tradition" and start developing components that show tangible performance improvements such as the enlarged BB spindle technology.

I commend any group of individuals who puts as much energy into improving cycling performance technology like the folks at Shimano do. They have provided us with STI, and are now pushing the mark with pedal economy in the BB interface.

David Gabrys
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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2004 Dura-Ace #2

While there is obvious logic in Mr Bowers' letter, the same basic issues have been raised every time the major manufacturers revise their cog sets. I remember people saying "why in the hell do we need more than 6?". The shifting gets easier and smoother with the close ratio setups and I, for one, applaud the engineering that created it.

Barron Stenger
Wednesday, May 21 2003

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2004 Dura-Ace #3

With regard to outboard bearings on the new Dura-Ace 2004. If it's better to have bigger bearings (and I'm sure it would as manufacturers move to pipe/spline style axles) then make the B/B shells bigger - don't stick the bearings on the outside! BMX bikes have large diameter B/B shells so the idea is not new and I believe FSA have been trying to promote a new standard shell size. At the least Shimano could have led the charge by releasing two B/B's - one for conventional bikes and the other for whatever new dimension is deemed most effective. I'm sure oversize aluminium and titanium frames would be easier to build with a larger B/B shell.

Angus Barber
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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2004 Dura-Ace #4

I've ridden the 10 speed Shimano, and the chain ring, though ugly, will stay as it is the reason the front derailleur functions 50 times better than the old DA. You can put the old 53 on if you want, but no one else will. It ramps like a dream and is lighter to boot, ugly smugly, function is first and all the guys in our group would want better, faster, smoother, front shifting, even the Campy guys.

John Williams
Monday, May 26 2003 (Pacific Daylight Time)

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2004 Dura-Ace #5

I don't think the XTR Q factor is wider. I went from XT and a 118 bb to the new XTR and had to move my cleats to get the heels of my shoes not to rub. Otherwise they feel identical in position. I think what they did was to make the arms straighter, but where the pedals attach its the same or at pretty similar

Andy Eunson
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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2004 Dura-Ace #6

It seems that people are impressed with the new dura ace group and in particular the outboard bearing concept which allows increased rigidity etc.

What's tragic is that Cannondale have been doing a bigger bottom bracket for a while now and FSA have a larger system, the logical step in my opinion would have been for Shimano to have worked with frame builders to take Dura-Ace the step beyond and use a larger integrated bottom bracket which would almost certainly be stiffer and lighter, it would also allow frame builders to more easily join large alloy tubes at the bottom bracket shell.

I regard this as a missed opportunity a real shame in my opinion we could have had a large step forward and in some respects Shimano are a big enough company to really push this concept.

As for the whole 10 speed thing it seems like more adjustment and hassle than it's worth for an amateur to maintain routinely as well as being more expensive, its got to the point now where I've got completely sick of the increased number of gears race to the point that my next road frame will almost certainly singlespeed, I'm not an old guy (28) just totally sick of the "more more" attitude and the obsolescence of cycle components.

Raoul Morley
UK
Thursday, May 15 2003

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'Burping' tubular tires #1

The latex inner tubes are far more elastic and can withstand abuse like this. You might find this tire now has a slow leak and you can keep using it until the tire really goes flat. A Veloflex criterium on my rear wheel developed a slow leak and I used it for another few hundred miles until one day it finally went flat. This is one of the reasons why I race on tubular tires like this. They can give you a second chance once in a while.

Bernice
USA
Thursday, May 15 2003

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'Burping' tubular tires #2

Are you riding deep section rims and using a valve extension? I have experienced the "burp" you describe using extensions that leave the valve open. A hard hit will force air out of the tube. The fix is simple. Get some "Problem Solvers" from Quality Bike Parts [QBP]. Available in two lengths, these have the ability to close the knurled nut of the valve by the use of a "press-fit" barrel inside the extension. Helpful hint: forget the miniature rubber washer. Instead, wrap the threads of the valve with a few turns of plumbers tape before installing the extension.

Roger Vandamme
Monday, May 19 2003

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Carbon upgrades #1

The Euro teams ride the Mavics because they're one of the few companies that can give a team 40 pairs of wheels and money to use them. Mavics are great wheels, though, but if your a lighter guy go for the Heds. I've seen too many Zipps crack on road reflectors and potholes to recommend them.

Chris Hichumlooper
USA
Friday, May 16 2003

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Carbon upgrades #2

I purchased a pair of Zipp 404s at the start of the season, they are great wheels, very aero yet lighter than practically anything else. So far they have taken a few hard knocks and have held up well. On the downside they are v stiff and as such are not as comfy as my sups. The reason most pro teams use mavics as they get paid a fortune to do so, CSC apparently have freedom to pick their own stuff, hence the Zipps. I also ride on FSA carbon cranks, My first pair, 2001 model, failed at the pedal crank join. FSA replaced them with the 2002 which is considerably beefed up, I've had no problems since.

Meredith Thompson
UK
Tuesday, May 20 2003

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Carbon upgrades #3

Carbon rims are super sexy, but also strikingly delicate. The pros love their Mavic Cosmic Carbones primarily because they do long steady speed races, which include lots of stretches of speed over 25 mph average. That wheelset really comes into its own at high speed, great for long breakaways, bridging gaps, or chasing back up to the group.

But I have seen many, many broken and dented all-carbon rims. Not like the Mavics that are still a metal rim, clincher or tubular. The only rim with a good reputation for toughness is the new Reynolds wheelset. On the other hand their hubs and spokes aren't as stout. And definitely avoid used carbon rims! Zipps are delicate now in their new version, but the older ones were way worse.

The FSA crankset is great, but the Dura-Ace is at least its match. I use both and the DA is better, but only just. The rings wear quickly, use TA or Stronglight for replacement, they're as hard as Campy. And the BB continues to need a consistent amount of maintenance, overhauling every 2-3 months due to the grease getting contaminated by dirt and water. Its greatest quality is its stiffness, claimed 35% better than previous generations.

Paul Rinehart
Williamstown MA
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Carbon upgrades #4

I put FSA Team Issue carbon cranks on my 2001 Giant TCR a few months ago (found a very good deal on eBay) and there is actually a little bit of a difference from the Dura Ace cranks I had on. The carbon cranks seem a tiny bit more responsive, especially when accelerating uphill. On the flats I don't notice much difference. But you sure can't beat the looks, the FSA crankset is gorgeous. All your friends will notice right away.

Peter Lindeman
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Carbon upgrades #5

I have used Zipp, and have had teammates use Zipp, for everyday use for several years and have had great luck with them. But I would recommend the 303, not the 404, for anything but TTs because of the stability in crosswinds. Overall I think Zipp makes excellent products. When I win the lottery my next set will be Zipps.

Mavic Cosmics are nice I hear but they are heavy & IMO overpriced. Pros riding them a lot should not necessarily dictate your decision. They almost all use integrated headsets too, and those are a bad idea for those of us who have to buy our own bikes.

One thing to watch out for is recessed spoke nipples. I have an old Bora with this setup and it is a pain to have to pull of a sew up to tension a spoke (or ride with it hopping until you are swapping tires anyways). I can't imagine it provides any measurable aero benefit.

Karl Etzel
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Carbon upgrades #6

I ride the Mavics and they are not actually carbon. At least not like Zipps are. They have a thin carbon fairing on an aluminum rim. The Zipps (and the Heds, I think) are structurally carbon, therefore much lighter. The idea behind the Mavic Cosmic Carbone is that the extra weight may take a little more energy and time to get to speed, but hold momentum better at speeds that the carbon fairing really makes a difference. The 404s are going to accelerate quicker and also have the fairing. I honestly would like the Zipps for the acceleration but went for the Mavics because of the deal available to me. Not to say I don't like them. I am sprinter and race many criteriums (as is the norm in the US) and have won a number of races on them. The one person I have met with HED Alps really likes them and I had a teammate who raced crits on HED 3s. The FSA Cranks are definitely lighter, though I have heard complaints about the top end cranks being flexible. I ride the next step down FSAs (still lighter than D/A) and have not noticed flex.

Ben Faulk
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Carbon upgrades #7

Concerning your wheel decision (Mavic Cosmic Carbon, HED Alps or Zipp 440) I'd place them 1) Zipps 2) Cosmic 3) Alps. I've never ridden the Hed wheels, but they are more of a climbing wheel and my experience (for what it's worth) has been that climbing wheels (despite what the shop salesman might say) are noticeably softer and less reliable than heavier wheels. The Zipps would be a better all-rounder (fairly light yet strong/rigid). The Cosmics are good and strong, but they are a bit heavy (their design is totally different from most deep-profile wheels - Cosmics are essentially a regular rim with a thin carbon fairing glued over it). Yes, the pros ride Cosmics a lot, but they're not paying for them, and the pros have a selection of sponsor wheels to choose from for each race. For you, I'd recommend looking at what will be good for you in the widest variety of conditions you face.

As for the carbon crankset, the question I have to ask is if the cost is really worth saving a few grams - there's a lot of other things you could spend your money or time on which will make you go faster than a pair of carbon cranks.

Have fun with your upgrade.

David Connell
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Carbon upgrades #8

I don't want to add to your dilemma (and what a nice dilemma to be faced with such a choice) but I feel that Bontrager wheels would be the best choice. I have been using them and their previous incarnation (Rolf Vector) for several years and found them to be fast, strong and comfortable. They do suffer from the usual problem that, by saving the weight and risk of delamination that comes with an applied alloy braking surface, they can be slightly grabby. This is always a problem with carbon rims, even if they are glass or resin impregnated, but not a critical one (until you fall off, just ask Laurent Jalabert).

My favourite wheel for general use right now is the Race X-Light which is alloy, but looks the business and rides great.

As for the carbon chainset, you will pay significantly more for it to save about 5 grams on Dura-Ace 9. You could probably save a few more grams by getting a super lightweight BB to fit, but this will reduce stiffness so won't really be faster. The Carbon FSA team issue is, to my eye, not the most pleasing shape, but the fact that it is carbon, and a bit different gives it sex appeal. If you are genuinely looking to justify the cost in terms of performance, forget it. If you want to add to the pose value of your bike, however, it will do the job.

A lot of people sell secondhand carbon wheels because they do not give the performance advantage they expect. As with any secondhand item, anything could have happened but that doesn't mean it has. I have more faith in carbon as a frame material than any other material, but only if it is really well made. The advantage of secondhand carbon is that it will very often be impossible to hide signs of past abuse. If in doubt, walk away.

Michael Addiscott
Thursday, May 15 2003

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Carbon upgrades #9

I have been using the Zipp 303 all carbon tubular and I have found it to be not only an amazing wheel, but a surreal experience. I ride my Zipps and sometimes think that I am "cheating" because they are so light and responsive. The only issue that I have with them is that there is some lateral flex, which takes a bit of adjustment. I am a serious pedal masher/sprinter and relatively heavy rider at 165lb, so that may be the reason why. I would say that the 404s would have considerably less lateral flex and could be the wheel for you. These are not meant to train on though, so if you are looking for an all-round wheel, I would recommend the Mavic Ksyriums or the Campagnolo Zonda. These are a serious set of race wheels.

JJ Schmiedlin
Culver, Indiana
Thursday, May 15 2003

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Carbon upgrades #10

A carbon wheelset is not durable enough for everyday use. The HED ALPS has Ti bladed spokes that roll fast but flex under heavyweight acceleration. Cosmics roll fast, are more durable but heavy so they're slow for climbing. The ZIPPS have steel spokes so they're stiffer than the HEDS and they're light however, a carbon wheelset is not durable enough for everyday use.

Robby Tatum
NYC
Friday, May 16 2003

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Carbon upgrades #11

I've gone through the same issue about carbon wheels and opted for a (lightly) used set of Zipp 404s. I didn't like the idea of any weight penalty at the price of carbon wheels, despite what the 'pro-peloton' seemed to be favoring. The 404s are magnificent wheels and despite their wonderful weight/aero ratio, are also fantastically stiff and stable! Too good to be true. I have to admit that my old Campy Shamals seem to be 'quicker' even though they don't have as much 'refinement' to their aerodynamics; maybe it's the lower spoke count and concealed nipples. But I haven't actually put this to a fair test comparison, it's only a subjective impression. However, they're considerably heavier (1875g), so for most real-world terrain, they have a big disadvantage. Maybe the new carbon Bora's (1600g I think) would be the ticket, but they're still heavier than the Zipps (1275g). I also have a set of Zipp 303s and they're even lighter (1180g), so when I have a climb intensive event, I strap them on and they feel like air. For this year, I've opted for the 404s as a time-trial wheel as well, and perhaps when I've 'earned' the rear disc I'll get one of those; the new 'dimpled' version seems like a very good disc wheel, and the 404 is the front wheel of the 909 set that comprises the TT package from Zipp.

As far as buying used - I've bought tons of stuff from eBay and almost never had any problem. One thing didn't arrive in the mail, but it was a very inexpensive item so I didn't bother. I don't think you can go wrong as long as the item seems to be fairly and well described. I doubt that carbon wheels are any more fragile than light aluminum ones, and all wheels will suffer from any mistreatment. My understanding is that carbon really isn't subject to the type of fatigue that some metals, especially aluminum is; that's certainly true of bike frames. Also over $100 I make it a rule to purchase only with my credit card (through an agency such as Paypal), so that if there's a problem, my credit card company will stand behind my purchase.

Bikeborb
Friday, May 16 2003

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Computer mount #1

I believe the computer mount that Shane Edwards is looking for is something like the Minoura "Space Invader". I'm not too sure what the name is offhand, but Minoura definitely makes one so you should be able to order it at any decent bike store.

I know Rebel Sport keeps this item in stock if you have a store nearby.

Kieren Brown
Cronulla, Australia
Thursday, May 15 2003

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Computer mount #2

It is the Cinelli Checkpoint. It is hard to find. You can mount two devices 2 inches in front of the bars by using this extension. It was on the Specialized Roubaix.

Greg Sedlock
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Dura-Ace hoods #1

I was able to fit Flight Deck hoods onto a pre Flight Deck right shifter. I was told it wouldn't work, but it seems fine to me.

Chris Fabri
Evanston, IL, USA
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Dura-Ace hoods #2

At least the first year of Dura Ace 9 speed STI levers were not Flite Deck compatible. Check with Shimano to see if they still make 9 speed hoods w/out the spots for the buttons for the Flite Deck controls otherwise the hoods with the spots on them will work.

Phil Pulley
USA
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Dura-Ace hoods #3

If you have the 9 speed Dura-Ace ST-7700 shifters without the "c" (ST-7700c's), the model without flight deck controls just order the newer hoods meant to the newer 7700c levers with the flight deck controls, they are 100% compatible, but of course you won't have flight deck controls, just a fake button. If you have the older 8 speed ST-7400 levers I'm quite sure that the replacements are still available. Check out with another LBS because this one is clearly uninformed. Even online shops carrie these hoods (both the older ST-7400 8sp and the newer ST-7700 9sp hoods). They cost around $12. My 9sp ST-7700 levers are on it's 3rd set of hoods (they all have the fake flight deck control button).

Miannini
Brazil
Friday, May 16 2003

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Flight Deck problems #1

Are you sure you didn't accidentally press the stop button on the left lever?

When you do the "km/h" indicator stops blinking and taking trip time, trip distance, and calculation of average speed is stopped.

To start, press the button on left lever again in "trip time" or "trip distance" mode.

Albin Mächler
Switzerland
Friday, May 16 2003

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Flight Deck problems #2

You haven't inadvertently put the computer in 'stop watch' mode have you? if so you will need to stop the timer and clear it you then should drop back into the 'normal' computer mode that most of us see. I have only used the 'stop watch'/timer function a couple of times and I don't have my Flight Deck with me to double check but I seem to recall some functions not working whilst in this mode.

Norman Hoy
Adelaide, Australia
Wednesday, May 21 2003

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Flight Deck problems #3

Sorry if I'm saying the obvious, but you have to restart these functions with the left button when new, changing battery, etc. Once started, they auto-start/stop.

Terry Ferguson
USA
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Flight Deck problems #4

I have this happen all the time, make sure when you are riding the little k/ph symbol above the speed is flashing. If it isn't try pushing the left button on the shifter. If you still have the operating manual it highlights this feature and how to use it.

Kelly Effert
Wednesday, May 14 2003

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Flight Deck problems #5

I had a similar problem once. I was caused by the button under the left brake hood being stuck down intermittently. The result is that most functions appear to be working, but every now and then the time, distance, and average speed are cleared as a result of pressing the right button to cycle through the functions. I lifted the hood up, cleaned out some dirt, and made sure the bump on the brake hood was directly over the button. Since then I have had no problems.

Paul F. Dunn
Friday, May 16 2003

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Answers #2